The Paris Project

16 Comments:

• ksssssssssssss (the sound of scorching heat)
  
  smokin!

  By  Heidi Renee, at 9:45 AM  

• I'd consider myself to have Calvinist theological leanings, but I don't consider myself to have patriarchal leanings. Are you so sure the two are intertwined? Can you maybe illustrate why you think they're connected on a philosophical level?
  Otherwise, I could argue that the vast majority of thoughtful theologians are Calvinist, and are also white males. Maybe women (as a generalization) don't think as systematically. Maybe women aren't as driven to make the logical connections. And maybe there just aren't that many reputable women out there in theological circles -- is that why there aren't calvinist endorsements by them?

  By  Sharon, at 10:07 AM  

• I read the same article and had the same reaction. I also heard Tim Keller speak this summer about theology of evangelism, and was so incredibly impressed- then I heard about his views on women in ministry.
  I was equally saddened when I read some of the excerpts of Calvin's and Augustine's writings that continue to lead some of today's brilliant thinkers down a heirarchical and patriachal path.

  By  ellbee, at 12:34 PM  

• Sharon, I've considered that possibility, but the growing prominence of women in a variety of professions that require systematic thinking makes me believe in their equal potential. Even in theology, women are present, but not so much in this particular strain that provides conferences, books, seminary educations, etc. that teach and promote by institutional and personal example the inequality of women.
  
  There are thousands of women who promote neo-Calvinism, but they are generally supportive of women's subordination. They engage the movement more as wives, daughters, church members, and non-pastoral ministers -- not as pastors, theologians, or public voices.

  By  Jenell Williams Paris, at 2:22 PM  

• I just came here from Scot's site (coincidence, not by a link) where he happens to be reviewing Belcher's book :)
  
  I loved your phrase, "patriarchy reloaded." I wondered too if it could be described as "hierarchy reloaded". As a Mars Hill neighbor (who happens to pastor), I have had frequent encounters with the "reload", and as often as they have been around the issue of women and their roles/identity, they have also been about power. There have been stories of horrific, pathological behavior by some church leaders--yes, all male--, and just this morning a story of a family wishing to attend our church preschool that self-identified as "very Calvinist" and was concerned about whether we would have a firm enough hand in terms of disciplining their child.
  
  Of course, patriarchy is a power issue, but I thought it worth highlighting other ways the power/hierarchy thing plays out, at least in our context.

  By  Erika Haub, at 3:52 PM  

• Hmmmm....this is disturbing. I very much see your point empirically, but I don't want to concede it theologically. I would point out that until very recently, Calvinism was also associated with racial segregation (the birth of the PCA, Keller's denomination), but now there are many examples of Calvinist churches with dynamic multiracial and multieconomic ministries (the face of those publishing books notwithstanding.) So what's the deal with women in ministry?
  
  Our church is associated with the Reformed Church in America, a much more mixed bag theologically, though we're in a strongly evangelical-Reformed mode. I don't know if you'd call us Calvinists, but we are egalitarians.
  
  I absolutely don't think there's a "natural" barrier to women doing systematic theology in the Reformed tradition any more than any other tradition. I think your critique of the movement as demonstrating social barriers is right on, but are there really no women out there doing good Calvinist theology? Aren't there any women at Calvin College in theology or philosophy? I will admit, at Wheaton, the two women hired in theology in the past years are both Wesleyans. Hmmmmm.....much to think about here.

  By  Brian Howell, at 8:11 PM  

• Brian,
  
  I think contemporary "Calvinism" is a big tent - it would characterize some denominations, and many individuals in a variety of denominations. But the "young Reformed" or the "neo-Calvinists" -- the people and movements described in Timothy George's article, are very loud and very public in their advocacy of patriarchy. If a person or church is affiliated with Calvinism and is egalitarian, they should speak up loudly (as you, for example, do so well).
  
  Jim Belcher's book, for instance, doesn't address the role of women, nor does it affiliate with the young Reformed crowd -- I don't know his point of view. But by couching one's argument in contemporary Calvinism, relying on patriarchal voices for endorsement, and neglecting to read or cite the theological contributions of women, this kind of silence (intentionally or inadvertently) contributes to the growth of this loud sub-set of Calvinism.
  
  (Hmmm - maybe I should have edited the post and said this more clearly in the first place.) Thanks for the prompt, Brian.

  By  Jenell Williams Paris, at 8:10 AM  

• I had to turn down an opportunity to review Deep Church for a denominational magazine because it aggravated me so badly.
  
  One of my flashpoints was Belcher describing a conversation with "church planters and their wives." As if the women weren't really among the people planting new churches. However, I think he was trying to be inclusive by mentioning the women at all.
  
  But mostly it aggravated me that he was focused on finding a third way between traditional/fundamentalist churches and emerging churches as if those were the outside boundaries of the Christian conversation.

  By  Robin M., at 4:49 PM  

• Big kisses, Jenell. You - I like, but sometimes reading your blog serves the same function in my life as jogging does. I jog about once a year, which serves to remind me "Yep, I still hate jogging."
  
  Many times, when I read your posts, I am reminded that yep - American evangelicalism is just as sexist as I remember. (and other things that didn't really work out for me.) After reading posts like this, I find myself terribly grateful that I'm not evangelical, and glad that I've found a spiritual path not centered around hierarchy (and original sin and hell, but that's another topic entirely.)
  
  You are fabulous, and I have no idea why you stay in that world, but blessings on your work and your voice. Maybe someday you'll manage to poke and prod that admission out of somebody, but in the meantime, you are putting into words something that a lot of people need to hear, so they know they're not crazy.

  By  christy, at 4:54 PM  

• I can't help but think...
  
  Moral outrage over evangelical Calvinists' patriarchy??
  
  Seems a bit benign compared to all of conservative Christianity's division of humanity into the Lost, headed to everlasting punishment; and the Saved,into everlasting blessedness(from Wheaton College's Statement of Faith).
  
  Now, that, is some serious violence.
  
  p.s. More kisses, and HUGS TO you, Jenell (I both enjoyed and resonated with your post, Christy).

  By  Randy, at 7:52 PM  

• Thanks, Jenell, for the clarification. That makes complete sense. I'm very glad to hear from your diverse readers, although I would just say to you, Randy, that the reason I think patriarchy is a far graver issue than the lost/saved division, is that "lostness" is not an immutable quality of being, nor a social hierarchy. Very few Christians have used salvation as a social category for political privilege since the Middle Ages. I can certainly see why it's offensive to be considered lost, but it is a rather different thing than the exclusion of women within the church (or any other institution). don't you think?

  By  Brian Howell, at 9:42 PM  

• Nice. I'm pretty clueless: which of the four is the raging misogynist?
  
  As to essential attributes, I think that, like all intellectual histories and traditions, Calvinism is less a thing and more a tool. So which elements are being used and how? I assume neo-Calvinists don't hold to Ptolemaic cosmology (as even Copernicus did), so clearly some elements of his worldview have been jettisoned. Why not patriarchy? That's the question.

  By  John Schaefer, at 4:54 AM  

• John,
  
  That's what I mean to say in the first place -- well put.
  
  Mark Driscoll is aggressively anti-women, IMHO.

  By  Jenell Williams Paris, at 11:51 AM  

• Brian and Jenell,
  
  Sorry for my muddled post. Brian,I'll try to clarify. The conservative xn category of "lostness" to which i referred is indeed immutable, in terms of after the "lost person" has died, or after the endtimes scenario you prefer has played out, the person goes to eternal, unchanging, immutable, everlasting punishment. My mentor John Stott shocked the Evangelcial world in the mid-80's as i'm sure you know,when he suggested the lost might possibly be annihalated, saving them the eternal part (:
  So, this is what i was suggesting was the far greater outrage, vis a vis evangelical patriarchy.
  But i fear i shouldn't have involved myself in the thread because i am no longer a Christian, much less an Evangelical. I guess i was wanting to "represent" for my tribe's view. Fyi, i was an Evangelical for around 25 years, w an Evang. ed. that included King Coll, TEDS, and Regent/Vancouver. Brian, you'll smile to know that Gary Burge was my first Greek, and NT teacher!
  If i were wise, i would avoid discussions that involve Evangelicalism, but i have found Jenell just so darn gracious and interesting. You know friends, when i was around the Evan. academic world, people like myself were not acknowledged. My theo prof's like Kantzer and Packer would have said (but not Pinnock,ha ha)i had never been a xn in the first place (: But we are out there, and i am sure you know a few. The vast majority disengage w their past, i haven't made that break, yet? But i wonder if discussion btwn former xn's and xn's is possible,without inevitably stepping on toes? I'd be interested in your experiences and comments, at mongo_hughes@yahoo.com
  Good evening,r

  By  Randy, at 8:55 PM  

• Please be fair in comments toward those you disagree with.
  
  Mark addressed this very point this week in one of his sermons...
  
  Check out Youtube clip..
  
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDroyr4p-EY

  By  Pete, at 9:10 AM  

• http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/special/mars-hills-13th-anniversary

  By  Pete, at 11:03 AM  

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